Posts by Doug Mason

15

Help needed with some research

by Doug Mason in

i was reading the wts 2103 brochure "how can you have a happy life?".

in section 3, it relies on "professor george zinsmeister, formerly of the university of massachusetts".. at: http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2012/06/jehovahs_witnesses_coming_to_a.html.

i located reference to:.

Doug Mason

Thanks, blondie!

I will keep note of them.

Doug

15

Help needed with some research

by Doug Mason in

i was reading the wts 2103 brochure "how can you have a happy life?".

in section 3, it relies on "professor george zinsmeister, formerly of the university of massachusetts".. at: http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2012/06/jehovahs_witnesses_coming_to_a.html.

i located reference to:.

Doug Mason

I was reading the WTS 2103 brochure "How Can You Have a Happy Life?". In Section 3, it relies on "Professor George Zinsmeister, formerly of the University of Massachusetts".

At: http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2012/06/jehovahs_witnesses_coming_to_a.html

I located reference to:

"George Zinsmeister of Sunderland, an elder of the Amherst congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses" arranging a meeting for them (June 22, 2012) at the University of Massachusetts.

Is anyone able to tell me if this "Professor George Zinsmeister" referenced in the WTS brochure is the JW Elder mentioned in the news article?

I have no interest in any communication with him; I simply want to know if the WTS has resorted to using one of its own as an authority (probably because it could not find another, particularly a Jewish source - given the intention of the brochure). I do not have a clue about US geography.

Doug

9

Ironic: g73 2/8 p. 4 The Wisdom of Admitting a Mistake

by 4thgen in

what ya all think about this?

of course, admitting we made a mistake is the right, honest and decent thing to do.

it is also the course of wisdom.

Doug Mason

" It is a serious matter to represent God and Christ in one way, then find that our understanding of the major teachings and fundamental doctrines of the Scriptures was in error, and then after that, to go back to the very doctrines that, by years of study, we had thoroughly determined to be in error. Christians cannot be vacillating—‘wishy-washy’—about such fundamental teachings. What confidence can one put in the sincerity or judgment of such persons? " (Watchtower, May 15, 1976, page 298)

3

WBATS APPLICATION OF THE BIBLE AND SCRIPTURES...

by ADJUSTMENTS in

it seems the wt publications and study articles, as the one used for today's meeting, literally and directly try and apply bible accounts to us today.

as if the bible is directly talking about jws and only jws, and how they are to live and serve god.

it seems to me the wbats tweak words, scriptures (always wondered why we would read only the b part of a scripture?

Doug Mason

Each Bible writer was addressing their own immediate community, using their concepts, their idioms, their culture, their political ambitions. They were not writing to or for a future generation, let alone one that would exist 2000 years later - and more. Therefore to comprehend what they were writing, it is critically important to fully understand the times, the culture, the politics of the times when each piece was written.

Since they wrote on perishable material, their writings had to be continually copied. When this happened, the copyist edited the material to make it suit his understanding, making it relevant to the time when he was living. Thus changes were deliberately made as well as accidentally introduced. This process continued from generation to generation.

The Bible writings are the records of humans; it is not the "word of God". So the WTS is simply repeating the unacceptable practices of their predecessors. But why does the WTS accept the Bible when it denigrates the people who decided which books would be used to make the Bible? It's like saying that I reject Islam but I fully accept the Qu'ran.

No Bible writer, including the writer of Revelation, was writing to a future generation. What would be the point of Jesus going around Galilee preaching to the people about the "kingdom" when he was actually talking to people who would be living 2000 years later. Why tell those people repeatedly about the kingdom when it was not relevant to their times? That would be totally meaningless to them. If Jesus wanted to talk to people today, he would do so.

Doug

48

Talking with a nonbeliever...

by suavojr in

in my search for the truth and the burning desire to become free from all forms of dogma and wishful thinking.

i have approached my first crossroads in my life, should i continue to believe in a god or not?.

currently i am leaning toward agnosticism, but all the suffering in the world, all the loss and pain in my own life makes it hard for me to simply let go of the idea and hope that at the end justice will prevail, that one day god can make it all good.. .

Doug Mason

suavojr,

I have travelled the road you describe.

Remain true to yourself; respect the right of others to their beliefs, and ask for the same in return. Break free from the regimentation imposed by religious leaders; recognise that all wriitngs, including the Bible, are the imaginings and assumptions of men and women.

Theology, eschatology, soteriology are interesting but nothing more. It does not matter what you think of God - every believer has a different idea anyway - what matters is that if there is a God, what she/he/it thinks of you.

Do good to others, be satisfied that during your life you have made a contribution to someone.

Go outside and hear the birds, smell the flowers, marvel at nature, the clouds, the real things that matter.

As I said, I have travelled the journey you speak of. There is the desire to dip the toe in the water but to hang on to the land. I have gone from rabid believer to agnostic, probably verging as an atheist. I have survived the journey, just as you shall.

Know with complete confidence that the feared Armagedon and the Divine "Coming" will not take place.

I wish you freedom - freedom from religion, from the pressures of religionists, freedom from people who want you to feel guilty. Break out.

Doug

3

Is "144,000" literal or symbolic?

by Doug Mason in

is 144,000 literal or symbolic?

rev.

7:4. is the wind that is being held back literal or symbolic?

Doug Mason

Is “144,000” literal or symbolic? – Rev. 7:4

Is the wind that is being held back literal or symbolic? – Rev. 7:1-3

Is “Israel” literal, or symbolic? – Rev. 7: 4

Are the “twelve tribes” literal or symbolic? – Rev. 7: 5-8

Is “144,000” literal or symbolic? – Rev. 14:1, 3

Is the “writing on their heads” literal or symbolic? – Rev. 14:1

These are men, and they have not been “defiled with women”. Is this literal or symbolic? – Rev. 14:4

They are “male virgins” – is this literal or symbolic? – Rev. 14:4

They follow the Lamb everywhere. Is this literal or symbolic? – Rev. 14:4

Of the 144,000 male virgin Israelites who follow the Lamb everywhere, it is said that “no deceit was found in their mouths; they are without blemish”. (Rev. 14:5). Who of the FDS Class is able to stand up and say that?

Who is prepared to build their belief system on these few verses of Revelation?

Doug

27

The "Christian Greek Scriptures"

by Doug Mason in

from 1950 to 2013, the watchtower and bible tract society has been releasing its new world translation of the scriptures.. my study considers the christian greek scriptures (new testament).. http://www.jwstudies.com/why_does_wts_accept_christendoms_scriptures.pdf.

i have also provided the pictures that i created for the study.. http://www.jwstudies.com/pix_for_study_wts_accepts_scriptures.pdf.

please accept the fact that i have no idea whether colours clash or if they match.

Doug Mason

Apognophos,

I do have tucked far away in the back of my mind a Study that addresses Paul as a mystic. I should read what Maccoby writes as well as Tabor. Paul was the earliest writer. He gave his own new mystical ideas to baptism and the communal meal. He was given these in visions; they did not come from any eye-witness. The gospels were not penned by any eye-witness. (I have my doubts that Jesus literally died at Passover; I sense that the idea developed from Paul's relating Jesus' death to it sacrificially.) I have touched on the chasm between Paul and the Jerusalem Church in other Studies. The ideas come from him. I scanned the following pages as they better express the ideas. They are from pages 91-92 of "Christian Beginnings" by the recently deceased Geza Vermes (Google for him.)

Doug

========================

The Lord's Supper

In addition to baptism, the first and unrepeatable Christian rite, Paul inherited from his predecessors a second great cult practice, the communal meal, referred to as the 'breaking of the bread' as well as `thanksgiving' or eucharist in Greek. As in the case of baptism, Paul supplied a new meaning to the community meal and turned it into an imitation and repetition of the 'Lord's Supper' — Jesus' last Passover dinner with his apostles on the evening before his crucifixion.

Paul implies that the mythical significance of this meal was revealed to him directly by Christ: 'I received from the Lord what I also handed on to you' (1 Cor. 11:23 ). He does not say that it came to him through apostolic tradition as the story of the death, burial and resurrection of the Saviour: 'I handed over to you what I in turn had received' (1 Cor. 15:3 ). If my understanding is correct, the mystical significance of the Last Supper must not be attributed to the Synoptic evangelists composing their accounts between AD 70 and 100, but to Paul writing in the early 50s. It seems that the idea entered the tradition of the Gospels of Mark and Matthew through Luke, Paul's disciple, whose Last Supper account mirrors that of his teacher. Only Paul and Luke mention Jesus' command relating to the repetition of the ritual. For Paul the rite comprised a twofold allegory: the participation of the believers in the redemptive acts of the death and resurrection of Christ, and their assimilation into the mystical body of Jesus and the church. In Paul's view, those who partook of the bread and drank from the cup were in the first instance united, mystically and sacramentally, with the redeeming death of Christ.

“The Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took a loaf of bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, 'This is my body that is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.' In the same way he took the cup also, after supper, saying, 'This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.' For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes.” (1 Cor. 11:23-6)

Moreover, as the bread was the symbol of Jesus' flesh, the many who consumed it were in addition spiritually transformed into a single body, that of the church: 'The bread that we break, is it not a sharing in the body of Christ? Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body, for we all partake in the same bread' (1 Cor. 10:16-17; Rom. 12:4-5).

Having invested the communal meal with such superhuman qualities, it is not surprising that Paul's plebeian followers in Corinth fell short of the required standard both in thought and in behaviour. He complained that the members of the congregation, far from being united, were split into factions along social lines (1 Cor. 11:18; see 1:12) and they behaved in a disorderly fashion during the ceremony itself. Instead of all sharing the same meal, each family brought along their own food, and while the less well off felt humiliated and remained hungry, the wealthy gorged themselves on delicacies and got drunk (1 Cor. 11:21-2, 33-4). Paul paints an odd portrait of the company making up the Corinthian church when he prohibits table fellowship with drunkards, idolaters, revilers and robbers and with the sexually immoral and greedy (1 Cor. 5:11).

Be this as it may, the breaking of the bread or the `Lord's Supper', as perceived through Paul's eyes, became the cornerstone of the cultic edifice of Gentile Christianity in his day and has remained so ever since.

27

The "Christian Greek Scriptures"

by Doug Mason in

from 1950 to 2013, the watchtower and bible tract society has been releasing its new world translation of the scriptures.. my study considers the christian greek scriptures (new testament).. http://www.jwstudies.com/why_does_wts_accept_christendoms_scriptures.pdf.

i have also provided the pictures that i created for the study.. http://www.jwstudies.com/pix_for_study_wts_accepts_scriptures.pdf.

please accept the fact that i have no idea whether colours clash or if they match.

Doug Mason

kepler,

Great! Thank you for your work and contribution.

I see Daniel as being written in 164 BCE as a means of strengthening the resolve of that Jewish community who were being persecuted. "Daniel in the Lions' Den" would have a certain meaning for them at that time.

It is impossible to apply Daniel 9 to Jesus; the NT does not attempt it and no Christian of the first two centuries made that association either. See pages 14ff of my Study:

http://www.jwstudies.com/Critique_of_GM_on_Daniel_9.pdf

The Gospels do not tell us how long Jesus' ministry lasted.

It is such a great pity that people read the Bible through Western eyes, that they ignore the contemporary situation which brought about the creation of a writing, but even more importantly how the text kept being changed as it was interpreted and reinterpreted. That is the material we read today. People thus need to be aware of Jewish thinking, Kabbalistic ideas, the role of the Mishna, and so on. People are so familiar with the writings of Paul that they fail to see his mysticism (significance of baptism; wine and bread of the eucharist; etc. Take Paul's inventions away and you are left with a very different Christianity - the Gospel Jesus).

The contemporary situation at the time of Jesus provides a significant backdrop. That is where the discoveries of the (presumably Gnostic) scrolls in 1947 play a key role. Did Jesus belong to the Nazarene Sect?

Two books on my bookshelf are waiting for me to investigate and they could prove interesting:

"The Jewish Apocalyptic Heritage in Early Christianity", edited by James C. VanderKam and William Adler.

"Communities of the Last Days: The Dead Sea Scrolls, the New Testament & the Story of Israel", by C. Marvin Pate.

You are touching on my temptation to work on a Study that shows the serious doubts scholars have with the book of Acts (of the "Apostles"). You sorely tempt me, as there is so much information available.

Maybe someone could write the story of the difficulties that Revelation had getting into the NT. Eschatologists (SDAs, JWs, etc) read it through a microscope, dissecting every word and interpreting it through prejudiced eyes. I would like to see a Study that looks at it from 3 paces back - the immediate contexts (political, cultural, religious, geographical, etc.); analysis of the other Apocalyptic writings (and movements) of the time (particularly Jewish); its (mis)alignment with the Gospels and Paul's writings; the picture of God compared with that given by the Gospel writers and by Paul; why they expected it all to play out "very soon"; and so on.

There is still so much to learn and discover. The WTS beats a single note on a drum with a single drumstick, keeping the minds of JWs in a strait-jacket.

Doug

27

The "Christian Greek Scriptures"

by Doug Mason in

from 1950 to 2013, the watchtower and bible tract society has been releasing its new world translation of the scriptures.. my study considers the christian greek scriptures (new testament).. http://www.jwstudies.com/why_does_wts_accept_christendoms_scriptures.pdf.

i have also provided the pictures that i created for the study.. http://www.jwstudies.com/pix_for_study_wts_accepts_scriptures.pdf.

please accept the fact that i have no idea whether colours clash or if they match.

Doug Mason

Page 11: I have fixed my inaccurate OCR scan of one sentence so that it reads:

"The issue was given focus by one Marcion, who was born on the shores of the Black Sea about AD 100 and who came to Rome in about 139."

The passage comes from page 43 of the book by Freeman.

Doug

27

The "Christian Greek Scriptures"

by Doug Mason in

from 1950 to 2013, the watchtower and bible tract society has been releasing its new world translation of the scriptures.. my study considers the christian greek scriptures (new testament).. http://www.jwstudies.com/why_does_wts_accept_christendoms_scriptures.pdf.

i have also provided the pictures that i created for the study.. http://www.jwstudies.com/pix_for_study_wts_accepts_scriptures.pdf.

please accept the fact that i have no idea whether colours clash or if they match.

Doug Mason

eeyeuse2beadub,

Power politics. And it started out that way, where people preyed on fears and superstitions. Remember that only a small percentage of people could read and even fewer could write. Whcih tells you a lot about Paul's background. (Fishermen such as Jesus' followers, would not be able to write in their own language - Aramaic - let alone in the polished Greek such as those letters falsely attributed to Peter.)

Since people were illiterate (no point Jesus writing anything), they were totally dependent on those who could. Hence they did not trust the use of the pen (note the attitude of the people at Jeremiah 8:8).

Break free! Smell the flowers, marvel at nature.

Doug